Big Problems on Hill Cumorah

This article was published on Life After Ministry (which is a site I highly recommend). I think it is a very good example of the fraudulent claims of the LDS.  Try to explain why this isn’t a problem!

==========

Today is a simple reminder of why Joseph Smith can’t be trusted.

While researching info for another article the other day, I came upon a few images of the infamous Hill Cumorah, aka Ramah Hill, that sits right outside of Joe Smith’s hometown, Palmyra, New York.

There’s nothing wrong with the images in and of themselves, but they got me to thinking about Smith’s claims in the Book of Mormon. Things like these often serve as another reminder to me of how the Church isn’t true.

If they truly loved the God of the Bible, why don’t they turn their attention to biblical events, and teach about tangible evidences we can see, feel, touch in the true ‘Promised Land’? Just as God has revealed it physically, He’s also revealed Himself to us spiritually as it says in Romans.

Romans 1:19 “Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.”

We’ve looked at the false prophecies on how it’d be physically impossible for two million people to camp, live, and fight a war on Hill Cumorah. You can find the first false prophecy about this in our investigation, False Prophecies of Mormonism Jaredites on Hill Cumorah.

The second false prophecy Smith made about a mass killing in war time on Hill Cumorah can be found in our article False Prophecies in the Book of Mormon, which chronicles the geographical dimensions of Cumorah, and how there’s no archaeological evidence of such a story.

The pictures I discovered the other day simply adds more proof Smith’s false prophecy in the Book of Mormon was just that – a lie. All three images came from lds.org.

Image #1 with two people standing atop a knoll in upstate New York, are Lucy W. Smith, and Pliny Sexton taken in 1920. Pliny Sexton was the original owner of Hill Cumorah. He refused to sell the property to the Saints, but after his death his daughter finally gave in to the repeated requests.

Image #2 is simply a shot of Hill Cumorah from a distance. I’ve included it here to show how Hill Cumorah is nothing but a knoll.

Image #3 is labeled as ‘Joseph F. Smith and others’, taken in 1905. This image shows 19-20 people walking down Hill Cumorah.

We’re not sure if the Church was, or wasn’t aware that they were proving Joe Smith a false prophet when a line of people walked down the small hill.

However, it was one of those priceless examples where we couldn’t have dreamt of a better scenario to show it’d be impossible for two million people to live, fight a war, and die, on that tiny hill.

In addition to that story, Smith wanted people to believe ‘hundreds of thousands’ did the same thing more than 2,000 years later with the story of Mormon and Moroni. See intro for Mormon chapter six.

All this would be laughable if it weren’t so tragic. The people who are most affected by his lies are those still trapped in the web of Mormonism. The older I get, the more people I see in my family who are aging as well, and passing away still believing in Smith’s tall tales. I lost my father last year, and although he didn’t buy into Mormonism, he learned to hate and mistrust everyone because of all the lies he believed while growing up in the Church. Both scenarios are an absolute travesty that breaks my heart.

When you have the opportunity, share the info you read here with the Mormon you know!

With Love in Christ;

Michelle

1 Corinthians 1:18

Did the Mormon Gods Author Eternal Law?

 Excellent video explaining a problem with Mormon gods.

Think about what the gentleman says, and try to understand why the LDS doctrine is totally illogical and unbiblical

What Was the Real View of God Held By Early Christians? Part 2

The following is excerpted from Gospel Topics Essay: Are Mormons Christian? The article is written by Eric Johnson. This post is a continuation from my previous post.

As with the previous post, where in the original article Eric underlines the statements from the LDS essay, I will use italics instead. I will then put Eric’s rebuttal in blue except when he is quoting Scripture and then it will be in red. 

Latter-day Saints believe the melding of early Christian theology with Greek philosophy was a grave error. Chief among the doctrines lost in this process was the nature of the Godhead. The true nature of God the Father, His Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith.

Which version of Joseph Smith’s teaching ought we to accept when it comes to the Godhead. The earlier version according to the Book of Mormon claimed:

*God was only one God (Alma 11:26-29; 2 Nephi 31:21; Mosiah 13:34, 15:1-4; Alma 11:44; 3 Nephi 11:27, 36; Mormon 7:7)

*God is unchangeable and eternal progression is impossible (Mos. 3:5; 3 Nephi 24:6; Mormon 9:9-10; Mormon 9:19; Moroni 7:22, 8:18)

*God is a spirit and could not be a glorified man (Alma 18:2-5, 18:24-28, 22:9-11)

Or should we accept the later version, as taught by Joseph Smith in the last couple years of his life?

*“I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods” (History of the Church 6:474).

*“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345).

*“We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345).

*“The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (D&C 130:22).

*“The idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false” (D&C 130:3. Oddly enough, the Book of Mormon teaches the Lord does dwell in the hearts of the righteous. See Alma 34:36).

If any religion has gone through changes from the original, Mormonism is surely the candidate!

….

As a consequence, Latter-day Saints hold that God the Father is an embodied being, a belief consistent with the attributes ascribed to God by many early Christians. This Latter-day Saint belief differs from the post-New Testament creeds.

No supporting evidence is given to support such a claim.

Whatever the doctrinal differences that exist between the Latter-day Saints and members of other Christian religions, the roles Latter-day Saints ascribe to members of the Godhead largely correspond with the views of others in the Christian world. Latter-day Saints believe that God is omnipotent, omniscient, and all-loving, …

While Mormons might say their God is “all-loving” and point to the LDS rejection of hell, one must ask, Why did God kick one-third of his children out of pre-existence, never to be given the chance to have a body, based on one error in judgment (choosing Lucifer over Jesus)? While their version of hell (outer darkness) might be impossible to ever attain, a good number of souls will never have the chance to experience one of the three kingdoms.

Another premise used in arguing that Latter-day Saints are not Christians is that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not descend from the traditional line of today’s Christian churches: Latter-day Saints are not Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Protestant. Latter-day Saints believe that by the ministering of angels to Joseph Smith priesthood authority to act in God’s name was returned or brought back to earth. This is the “restored,” not a “reformed,” church of Jesus Christ. The Latter-day Saint belief in a restored Christianity helps explain why so many Latter-day Saints, from the 1830s to the present, have converted from other Christian denominations. These converts did not, and do not, perceive themselves as leaving the Christian fold; they are simply grateful to learn about and become part of the restored Church of Jesus Christ, which they believe offers the fulness of the Lord’s gospel, a more complete and rich Christian church—spiritually, organizationally, and doctrinally.

While Mormons may say their church has never criticized other churches, this is just inaccurate. Check out this article to see a number of quotes where the leadership blasted Christianity.  To claim that your church is the “only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth” shows that all others are lacking in authority. Indeed, according to LDS leaders, the Mormon Church is, by itself, the only true church….

What Was the Real View of God Held By Early Christians?

The following is excerpted from Gospel Topics Essay: Are Mormons Christian? The article is written by Eric Johnson. 

In the original article Eric underlines the statements from the LDS essay but I will use italics instead. I will then put Eric’s rebuttal in blue except when he is quoting Scripture and then it will be in red. So let’s get started:

Latter-day Saints Do Not Accept the Creeds of Post–New Testament Christianity.

Scholars have long acknowledged that the view of God held by the earliest Christians changed dramatically over the course of centuries. Early Christian views of God were more personal, more anthropomorphic, and less abstract than those that emerged later from the creeds written over the next several hundred years. The key ideological shift that began in the second century A.D., after the loss of apostolic authority, resulted from a conceptual merger of Christian doctrine with Greek philosophy.

This is utter nonsense. No support is provided to show how earlier worship in the times of the Bible evolved.

In 1947, a shepherd boy stumbled upon the first cave that contained what was later known as the Dead Sea Scrolls. Inside this cave were two copies of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, dating to before the time of Jesus. In fact, the earliest copy we had before (the Masoretic text) was dated the 10th century AD. It would seem that this would help us understand if the Bible was transmitted correctly. Using this, allow me to quote from the English translation of the Dead Sea Scrolls:

Isaiah 43:10: You are my witnesses, says YHWH, and my servant whom I have chosen: so that you may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, nor after me will there be.

Isaiah 44:6-8:  Thus says YHWH the King of Israel, and his Redeemer YHWH of hosts [+is his name]; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. . . . you are my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? There is no god of stone that I know.

Isaiah 45:5-7:  I am YHWH, and there is no one else, and beside me there is no God I girded you, and you did not know me: So that they will know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am YHWH, and there is no one else.

Meanwhile, we have almost 6,000 Greek manuscripts of the Koine Greek of the New Testament and 24,000 total manuscripts. We have pieces of the Bible going back to the second century, with complete manuscripts as early as the fourth century. The Mormon must show how there was a loss of apostolic authority and how there was a “merger” with Greek philosophy.

But the Mormon scholar must not only show that Christianity merged with the Greeks. If they want to present a case for their own religion, they must show in “former-day” Christianity where doctrines similar to theirs were taught. They must produce evidence that it was once believed that God is composed of a body of flesh and bones and that he once existed in another world. They must explain that the temple contained ordinances similar to theirs, including secret handshakes and baptisms for those already dead. And they must present evidence that people (other than the Levites) could hold the priesthood. In fact, there are a host of other issues that must be thoroughly explained to show that Mormonism is closer to the original than Christianity. One cannot merely claim that there were a number of changes without doing this second part. As Aaron Shafovaloff has stated, “If all their creeds are an abomination, why is much of the Nicene Creed to be found in D&C 20:17-28?” Good question. In addition, Sharon Lindbloom writes this thought-provoking blog article here.

First Vision Lacking God

What follows is from a file I have which I acquired several years ago from www.josephlied.com.  I have a note which says it was written by Michal Norton but I can't find it on that site any more, nor can I find it anywhere else.  Nevertheless, I think it should be available for those seeking the truth about the cult of Mormonism (Latter-day Saints).

=====================

Most people even slightly familiar with the Mormon Church have heard of the "first vision" of Joseph smith.   In the Spring of 1820 at the age of 14, Joseph claimed to have  had a "vision" of God the Father and Jesus Christ.  However,  take a look at what Joseph and several of the early leaders of  the Church (and even Joseph's Mother and one of his brothers)  had to say about the "first vision" (emphasis in bold is mine).

Brigham Young - "The Lord did not come with the armies of  heaven ... but He did send his angel to this same obscure  person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet,  Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong" Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 171 (1855)

Wilford Woodruff - "The same organization and Gospel that Christ died for ... is again established in this generation.  How did it come? By the ministering of an holy angel from God, out of heaven, who held converse with man, and revealed unto him the darkness that enveloped the world ... He told him the Gospel was not among men, and that there was not a true organization of His kingdom in the world" Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p. 196 (1855)

Orson Hyde - "Some one may say, 'If this work of the last days  be true, why did not the Saviour come himself to communicate this intelligence to the world?' Because to the angels was committed the power of reaping the earth, and it was committed to none else." Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 335 (1854)

George A. Smith - "...he [Joseph Smith] went humbly before the Lord and inquired of Him, and the Lord answered his prayer, and revealed to Joseph, by the ministration of angels , the true condition of the religious world. When the holy angel appeared , Joseph inquired which of all these denominations was right and which he should join, and was told they were all wrong" Journal of Discourses, vol. 12, p. 334 (1863)

George A. Smith - "[Joseph] was enlightened by the vision of an holy angel. When this personage appeared to him, one of the first inquiries was 'Which of the denominations of Christians in the vicinity was right?' " Journal of Discourses, vol. 13,  p. 78 (1869)

John Taylor - "None of them was right, just as it was when the Prophet Joseph asked the angel which of the sects was right that he might join it. The answer was that none of them are right." Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, p. 167 (1879)

George Q. Cannon-"But suppose that the statement that Joseph Smith says the angel made to him should be true-that there was  no church upon the face of the earth whom God recognized as His, and whose acts He acknowledged-suppose this were true..."    Journal of Discourses, vol. 24, pg. 135 (1889)

William Smith- "He accordingly went out into the woods and falling upon his knees called for a long time upon the Lord for wisdom and knowledge.  While engaged in prayer a light appeared in the heavens, and descended until it rested upon  the trees where he was.  It appeared like fire.  But to his great astonishment, did not burn the trees.  An angel then appeared to him and conversed with him upon many things.  He told him that none of the sects were right..." William Smith 

On Mormonism , By William Smith, Joseph Smith's brother. pg. 5 (1883) "The angel again forbade Joseph to join any of these churches, and he promised that the true and everlasting Gospel should be revealed to him at some future time.  Joseph continues: 'Many other things did he (the angel) say unto me which I cannot write at this time' " Church Historical Record,  Vol. 7, January, 1888 [It should be noted here that in this quote the first reference to "the angel" was later changed to "the Holy Being" and the second reference to "the angel" was changed to "the Christ"]

Joseph Smith, Nov. 1835 - "...I received the first visitation of Angels when I was about 14 years old..." Personal writings of Joseph Smith, pg. 84 [It should be noted that this entry has been changed in the History of the Church, Vol. 2, pg. 312. It now reads "my first vision" instead of "visitation of Angels"]

Brigham Young - " Do we believe that the Lord sent his messengers to Joseph Smith, and commanded him to refrain from joining any Christian church, and to refrain from the wickedness he saw in the churches, and finally delivered to him a message informing him that the Lord was about to establish his kingdom on the earth..." Journal of Discourses, Vol. 18, pg. 239

Isn't it odd that over 40 years after Joseph's alleged "first vision", Church leaders like Brigham Young and John Taylor were still unaware of Joseph Smith's claim of seeing God the Father and Jesus Christ?  That's because Joseph's "first vision" was a consistently changing story that was virtually unknown to early Latter-day Saints.  Over the years Joseph's story changed from an event in the year 1823 to 1821 to 1820. His motive for seeking God in prayer also changed significantly over the years.  From no motive (a spirit appears with news of gold plates), to a desire to know if God exists, to a desire for forgiveness of sins, and finally, to a local religious revival.  Most importantly, even the heavenly visitor(s) that he saw were constantly changing.  Depending on the account Joseph 

gave, it was either a spirit, an angel, two angels, many angels, Jesus, and finally, the Father and the Son. LDS Church President Gordon B. Hinckley stood in General Conference and said "Our whole strength rests on the validity of that vision. It either occurred or it did not occur. If it did not, then this work is a fraud." (Gordon B. Hinckley, “The Marvelous Foundation of Our Faith,” Ensign, Nov. 2002, pg.78)  If this "First Vision" of Joseph Smith did occur, it certainly didn't happen the way the Church wants us to believe it did.   

Another Lie About the Book of Mormon

The Book of Mormon is the most important religious text to be revealed from God to man “since the writings of the New Testament were compiled nearly two millennia ago.” Joseph Smith declared the Book of Mormon to be “the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion.” It is the only book that the Lord Himself has testified to be true.

17th President Russell M. Nelson, “A Testimony of the Book of Mormon,” Ensign, November 1999, pg.70

Let’s dissect the statement a wee bit.

 

First, the BOM was not revealed by God to anyone. The LDS god is not the same as the Jewish or Christian God. The LDS god is a man who worked his way to his heaven and lives on another planet. Either Joseph Smith made up the story or he was talking to a demon.

See 10 Reasons to Reject the First Vision of Joseph Smith

“most correct of any book on earth”

What about these errors?

Then there is the geography error.

Then there is the synagogue error.

One of many anachronisms.

One of my favorite anachronisms.

How about this overall look at BOM problems?

This blog has demonstrated many other errors, and there are many other sites that demonstrate myriads of errors. So, no, the Book of Mormon is NOT the “most correct of any book on earth.” That’s just another lie from the LDS to indoctrinate their members.

First Vision Thoughts

(For determining years and ages, remember that Joe was born 12/23/1805)

From Lucy's History:

In Joseph's 15th year a revival began.  This would make it 1820, and Joseph claimed it was the Spring of 1820. 

Joseph saw two persons: God and Jesus.  He was told to join no churches since all were wrong.

Joe began his first attempt at autobiography in either 1831 or 1832, dictating to his secretary, Frederick T. Williams.  Sometime between 20 July and 27 November 1832 Joseph said,

I cried unto the Lord for mercy, for there was none else whom I could go and obtain mercy, and the Lord heard my cry in the wilderness.  And while in the attitude of calling upon the Lord, in the 16th year of my age, a pillar of light above the brightness of the sun at noon day come down from above and rested upon me.  And I was filled with the spirit of God and the Lord opened the heavens upon me and I saw the Lord, and he spake unto me saying,

"Joseph, my son, thy sins are forgiven thee.  Go thy way, walk in my statutes and keep my commandments.  Behold, I am the Lord of glory; I was crucified for the world that all those who believe on my name may have Eternal life.  Behold, the world lieth in sin at this time and none doeth good, no not one.  They have turned aside from the Gospel and keep not my commandments.  They draw near to me with their lips while their hearts are far from me, and mine anger is kindling against the inhabitants of the earth to visit them according to this ungodliness, and to bring to pass that which hath been spoken by the mouth of the prophets and apostles.  Behold, and lo I come quickly, as it is written of me, in the cloud clothed in the glory of my Father.”

My soul was filled with love, and for many days I could rejoice with great Joy and the Lord was with me.  But [I] could find none that would believe the heavenly vision…

Joseph did not publish this account.

On 9 Nov 1835 Joseph was visited by Robert Matthias, alias "Joshua, the Jewish minister."  Joseph told him the story of his "first vision" and the account was recorded in the daily journal by Warren A. Cowdery.  After explaining about the visitor, Warren wrote the following:

The conversation soon turned upon the subject of Religion, and after the subject of this narrative [Matthias] had made some remarks concerning the bible, he [Joseph] commenced giving him a relation of the circumstances, connected with the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, which were nearly as follows.

Being wrought up in my mind respecting the subject of Religion, and looking at the different systems taught the children of men, I knew not who was right or who was wrong, but considered it of the first importance to me that I should be right, in matters of so much moment, matter involving eternal consequences.  Being thus perplexed in mind I retired to the silent grove and there bowed down before the Lord, under a realizing sense (if the bible be true) ask and you shall receive, knock and it shall be opened, seek and you shall find, and again, if any man lack wisdom, let of God who giveth to all men liberally & upbraideth not.  Information was what I most desired at this time, and with a fixed determination to obtain it, I called on the Lord for the first time in the place above stated, or in other words, I made a fruitless attempt to pray.  My tongue seemed to be swoolen [sic] in my mouth, so that I could not utter, I heard a noise behind me like some one walking towards me.  I strove again to pray, but could not; the noise of walking seemed to draw nearer, I sprang upon my feet and looked round, but saw no person, or thing that was calculated to produce the noise of walking.  I kneeled again, my mouth was opened and my tongue loosed; I called on the Lord in mighty prayer.  A pillar of fire appeared above my head; which presently rested down upon me, and filled me with unspeakable joy.  A personage appeared in the midst of this pillar of flame, which was spread all around and yet nothing consumed.  Another personage soon appeared like unto the first: he said unto me thy sins are forgiven thee.  He testified also unto me that Jesus Christ is the son of God.  I saw many angels in this vision.  I was about 14 years old when I received this first communication.

In 1838 Joseph dictated a version of the 1st vision which is the official version.  It is in History of the Church, Vol. 1, pp. 5-7.  He stated he was 14 and troubled by the religious revivals, and went into the woods to seek guidance from the Lord.

It was the first time in my life that I had made such an attempt, for amidst all my anxieties I had never as yet made the attempt to pray vocally.... I kneeled down and began to offer up the desires of my heart to God.  I had scarcely done so, when immediately I was seized upon by some power which entirely overcame me, and had such an astonishing influence over me as to bind my tongue so that I could not speak.  Thick darkness gathered around me, and it seemed to me for a time as if I were doomed to sudden destruction.  But, exerting all my powers to call upon God to deliver me out of the power of this enemy which had seized upon me, and at the very moment when I was ready to sink into despair and abandon myself to destruction - not to an imaginary ruin, but to the power of some actual being from the unseen world, who had such marvelous power as I had never before felt in any being - just at this moment of great alarm, I saw a pillar of light exactly over my head, above the brightness of the sun, which descended gradually until it fell upon me.

It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound.  When the light  rested upon me I saw two personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air.  One of them spake unto me, calling me by name, and said - pointing to the other - 'This is my beloved Son, hear Him.’

My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join.  No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able o speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right - and which I should join.  I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt; that 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me; they teach for doctrines the commandments of men: having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.'  He again forbade me to join with any of them: and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time.  When I came to myself again, I found myself lying on my back, looking up into heaven.

PROBLEMS:

1.  Joe's 1834 autobiography did not mention any visions.

2.  If vision took place in 1820, why did Joe, Hyrum and Samuel still attend the Presbyterian Church as late as 1828?

3.  Lucy's letter to her brother in 1831 gave full details of the Book of Mormon yet never mentioned its origin.

4.  There are no contemporary news accounts.

5.  1834 Mormon History published by Joe and Oliver Cowdery mentions no visions until 1823 when the angel Moroni directed Joseph to the hidden plates.

6.  From 1823 to 1827 was Joe's most intensive money-digging time.