Had I anything to do with the negro, I would confine them by strict law to their own species, and put them on a national equalization.
Joseph Smith, History of the Church 5:217-218.
Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.
Brigham Young, March 8, 1863, Journal of Discourses 10:110.
The descendants of Ham, besides a black skin which has ever been a curse that has followed an apostate of the holy priesthood, as well as a black heart, have been servants to both Shem and Jepheth, and the abolitionists are trying to make void the curse of God, but it will require more power than man possesses to counteract the decrees of eternal wisdom.
John Taylor, Times and Seasons, April 1, 1845, 6:857.
15 comments:
You did not publish my comment because it refutes your out of contextg quotes.
Anonymous,
I didn't post your comment because it was nonsense from a troll, and I don't post troll comments. If a person has a real discussion to make without ad hominem attacks, then I'll publish. Nothing you wrote refuted my quotes and they were not out of context.
I have plenty of evidence on this site proving the racist teaching of Mormons; just look on the list of topics on the right side of the blog and click on "racism."
Someone responded to your post. Their response is summed up as follows:
The article "Refuting LDS Racism Critiques: Brigham Young, Joseph Smith, and 19th Century Christianity Explained" addresses criticisms regarding racial views held by early leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church). It emphasizes the importance of understanding these views within the broader context of 19th-century American society and Christianity.
The author critiques Glen E. Chatfield's arguments, suggesting that his use of emotional language and selective quotations may lead to misconceptions about the church's history. By focusing on isolated statements without considering the prevailing societal norms of the time, such critiques might overlook the complexities faced by religious leaders during that era.
The article encourages readers to consider the historical context when evaluating past statements and actions, acknowledging that while certain views expressed by early church leaders may be troubling by today's standards, they were influenced by the widespread beliefs and practices of their time. This perspective aims to foster a more nuanced understanding of the church's history concerning race.
In conclusion, the author advocates for a balanced approach when discussing historical critiques of the LDS Church, urging readers to engage with the broader historical context to gain a more informed perspective.
Anonymous,
For you to know anything about someone's response means you were either the troll or working with the troll.
The context of LDS Racism had nothing to do with the culture, and any Mormon articles saying otherwise are lies. Joseph Smith started the racism and he supposedly was a prophet of God and got his teachings from God.
Some good resources to prove the LDS racism and even attempts to cover it up:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2Ed4Ox6m1U
https://www.npr.org/2013/03/17/174559275/mormons-change-references-to-blacks-polygamy
https://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com/2014/12/mormonism-racist-religion.html
https://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com/2014/12/did-they-really-say-that_17.html
Joseph Smith's Racism:
https://blog.mrm.org/2014/02/joseph-smith-founder-of-lds-racist-scriptures-and-teachings-part-1/
https://blog.mrm.org/2014/02/joseph-smith-founder-of-lds-racist-scriptures-and-teachings-part-2/
https://blog.mrm.org/2014/02/passing-the-torch-of-mormonisms-historical-racisim/
Black skin was given as a mark of those people who were not valiant in the spiritual realm, and this black skin supposedly is a mark of who cannot hold a Mormon priesthood. Since the LDS received a revelation from God to begin allowing blacks the priesthood, how come their skin is still black?
I can bury you with evidence that LDS racism had nothing to do with culture and everything to do with Joseph Smith and the rest of the LDS "prophets."
Anonymous,
I'm not posting futher comments from you since you are just trying to defend the indefensible--the LDS cult.
It has nothing to do with emotions, just facts--which you refuse to accept.
Again, you just want to claim the racism was in the context of culture but none of the LDS "prophets" and "scholars" ever referred to culture but instead referred to revelations from God.
End of discussion.
Anonymous.
Your defense of the LDS tells me you aren't Christian, so don't use that as a reason to dialog.
I appreciate the opportunity to engage in meaningful dialogue, and I hope this message can be received with the same intention in which it is offered: with respect, humility, and a desire to foster understanding. That said, I feel it is necessary to address some of the tone and judgments expressed, as they detract from the substance of this important conversation.
First, the accusations of whether one is or is not a Christian are deeply troubling. Determining the state of someone’s faith is a matter only God can discern. None of us is in a position to pass judgment on another’s standing before Christ, as doing so risks bearing false witness—something we are explicitly cautioned against in Scripture (Exodus 20:16). When such judgments are made, they often reflect more about the one casting them than the one being judged.
It is also important to point out that a dismissive and aggressive tone, coupled with condescension, creates an impression of hypocrisy, especially when questioning someone else’s faith or Christian character. The fruit of the Spirit, as described in Galatians 5:22-23, includes love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. These are the markers of genuine Christian living. When these qualities are absent in discourse, it raises legitimate concerns about whether the actions and attitudes being demonstrated align with the faith being professed.
Moreover, using someone’s faith—or perceived lack thereof—as a means to dismiss their perspective not only undermines the possibility of constructive dialogue but also contradicts Christ’s teachings. Jesus engaged with people from all walks of life, always leading with compassion, humility, and a heart open to discussion. If we are to emulate His example, we must be willing to listen and engage in conversations respectfully, even when we disagree.
Finally, I encourage all parties to approach these discussions with a spirit of humility and self-examination. Rather than focusing on whether others meet our standards of Christian integrity, we might instead ask ourselves if our own actions and attitudes reflect Christ’s love, grace, and truth. As Matthew 7:3-5 reminds us, we must first remove the plank from our own eye before addressing the speck in another’s.
Let us strive to build bridges rather than walls, seeking unity and mutual understanding as followers of Christ. This is not only a reflection of our faith but also a testimony to the world of the transformative power of His love.
In humility and grace,
Anonymous
Anonymous,
Your posts were defending the LDS against charges of racism, claiming I didn't take into account the culture at the time. My point was that racism in the LDS had nothing to do with culture and yet you still defend the LDS racism as a product of the times!!!!
Also, I went to your link and saw your assault on my rejection of comments abnd what you consider a "hostile" attitude. It's hard for me to determine it there were one or two of you with the same argument.
You claim to be a pastor and yet you DEFEND the LDS against charges of racism?!?!?
I don't not publish links to articles defending the LDS either.
I see no point in discussing this topic any further because what I posted was 100% factual and had nothing to do with the culture of the time, espeically since the racism continue up until the 1970s!!!!
In other words, you do not believe that there was no systemic racism previous, during, or after Joseph Smith's Life and that of Brigham Youn as it relates to slavery, African American's, and the utilization of the Bible to support slavery? And that the origination of the "Curse of Cain" and the "Curse of Ham" did not come from 19th Century, or earlier Christian thinking as it relates to the sustained systemic racist rhetoric perpetrated by Christian ministers and believers?
And if you claim to present facts - what evidence, outside of what you appear to claim and cite - have you actually offered?
See, these are questions your content brings up. Questions that are addressed by Timothy, and others who have studied this information out.
Have you ever considered that there is a real possibility that you actually might be wrong and misleading in what you are attempting to present?
Or, do you even bother to concern yourself with the consequence of making unfounded claims, judge people who disagree with you, and show your potential readers a serious lacking intellectual integrity and honesty in how you handle and interact with others? Are you above correction, refutation, and reproof?
From your comment - it appears you are. What a sad pathetic arrogant individual you come off as.
First, I NEVER said there weren't problems with racism in the culture back then. I stated a 100% fact that it wasn't cultural racism that made LDS racist. If you want to say Joseph Smith's racism was because of the culture, that is a possibility, but the LDS were racists because Smith said he got his racist teachings from God and all LDS presidents and prophets continued to teach racism as from God.The LDS taught hard-core racism from the 1830s to into the mid-1970s--it wasn't until 1978 that blacks could hold the priesthood and the real reason for their doctrinal change was because of sports--football, etc. Their teams were being banned because of the racism.
So the CONTEXT of LDS racism was not due to the culture of the time. And I am 100%. correct.
There appears to be a disconnect here. If I understand you correctly, your core assertion and criticism is that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and John Taylor ought to have known better not to make racist remarks because they appeared to speak on authority in God's name and therefore, because they made racist claims - it all came from God? And based on that, they are wrong?
Let's apply the same logic and standard of criticism, not against Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, or John Taylor. Let us use the same logic and standard of criticism that you appear to establish against Christian believers and ministers of the 19th Century.
American Christianity is a racist religion because its ministers and believers based their understanding on what God revealed in the Bible regarding slavery and the African Americans as being inferior and descendants of Ham who was cursed by God. They essentially got their racist teachings from God because the Bible is God's infallible, inerrant, word revealed to man and sufficient in all things.
Now, does that make sense? Do you agree with that and willing to admit that American Christianity is born out of systemic racism? Regardless of the social norms and cultural context because those Bible Believing Christians and ministers ought to have known better?
Just because there were racist Christians, acting and believing totally against the Word of God, it is illogical to compare that with LDS teachings that God specifically told them to be racists.
You have one goal in mind, and that is to defend LDS racist past while forgetting it wasn't just in the past but strictly taught in the 1960s and early 1970s.
This is why it is hard for me to believe that you are a Christian pastor (unless you're a LEFTIST one) because no Christian pastor would be so focused on defending an LDS doctrine.
I'm not debating this any more--it's a waste of time to let you continue to defend the indefensible.
I want to point that MR anonymous and his followers end up resorting to ad homimen attacks as they pretend I know nothin about history or what was happening re racism in the 19th and even 20th century with Christian churches. The only way REAL Christians (not cults like the LDS) could support racism by using Scripture was to totally twist the Bible passages out of context. Mr Anonymous and his supporters, including a blog by "Timothy" which has been posting this conversation are just on a mission to protect and explain away LDS doctrine about racism as just being part of the culture of the times, regardless that the LDS supposedly got their doctrines about racism from God, just like their doctrines on polygamy which somehow God changed his mind on that like he did on racism in 1978.
Mr. Anonymous claims to be a Christian pastor but no real Christian would go to battle to protect LDS doctrines,
These people can make all sorts of ad hominem attacks, especially lying about my credentials to discuss this topic but they will never again have their comments posted. I don't allow the defense of cults on my blogs.
I have been accused of making ad hominem attacks. Here are the two I am attacked for:
Someone commented that I was publishing out-of-context quotes along with some patter that didn’t make sense. It was the type of comment normally made by “trolls.” In regards to internet “trolls,” they are defined as “…someone who posts inflammatory or offensive comments online to intentionally upset others. Trolls may also post irrelevant or repetitive comments to disrupt conversations.” Which is exactly what the first comment appeared to be.
When the individual complained about my not posting, I posted his comment and explained why—that it was from a troll. So that is the first incident in which I was condemned as making an ad hominem attack.
Being still doubtful as to the individual being a troll or seeking actual communication, I allowed the next comment, But then the comments I began getting were all in defense of the LDS stand on racism. So I then stated that this commenter’s defense of the LDS made it apparent the person was not a Christian — for that I was accused of an ad hominem attack.
Then I allowed the commenter again (notice he’s always “anonymous”) because he claimed to be a Christian pastor.
This raised the ire of this so-called pastor, at 1/13/25, 4:48 PM where he accused me of something I never implied and then he began with the ad hominem attacks—real ones, not fake ones as I was accused of. Read them for yourself in the past to statements.
From that point on I’ve received many, many trolling comments with nothing but ad hominem attacks and support of the LDS. I do not post such comment because they are not discussions and only attacks, proving that there was no Christian “pastor” in the discussion but LDS trolls.
The facts are that the LDS racism had absolutely NOTHING to do with the culture; IF Joseph Smith instituted his racist doctrines/teachings because of the culture, then HE is the only one guilt of that since every other LDS person was/is racist because they believed Smith was taught that by God.
One more thing:
These LDS trolls kept trying to justify the LDS racism by pointing out many Christians were also racist and used the "curse of Ham" as well as other Biblical passages to back up their racist beliefs, and then claim I am ignorant of history for not knowing/understanding that.
Only a small percentage of Christians, compared to total Christians, were racist, BUT, as I noted in my previous comment at 1/17/10:27 AM, "The only way REAL Christians (not cults like the LDS) could support racism by using Scripture was to totally twist the Bible passages out of context."
No Real Christian can ever be a racist from real Bible teachings and Christian doctrines.
I can guarantee that I know history; studying history is my passion and I have read hundreds of books regarding history--and not just US history, but also WORLD history. I have given away hundreds of books on history to make room years ago for all my theology and apologetics books (which totaled over 1000 before I began giving THOSE away). I still have 300 books about history on my shelf, only half of which are U.S. history with the rest being world history. SO don't pretend I don't know my history!!!! YOU LDS TROLLS don't want to acknowledge you own history!
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