Tuesday, April 5, 2016

Why No Trinity With LDS?


Why does the LDS Church reject the historic church’s concept of the Trinity?  Not only does the Trinity remove any hope of a Mormon ever achieving godhood, but it also undermines Smith’s First Vision account and subsequent teachings regarding a multiplicity of deities.  If it can be demonstrated that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost/Spirit are God, and at the same time be shown that there exists only one God, it would definitely place the integrity of the first Mormon prophet on the line.


Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson, “Mormonism 101,” pg.66

10 comments:

Unknown said...

Well, you would need to study the origination of the Trinity. The blasphemous, false doctrine of the Trinity originated through the Catholic Church, at the council of Nicea. This is where the, "Creeds of the godhead" were established. In Psalms it specifically says, "there are Gods many." Now, this one scripture indicates there are multiple Gods. In addition to this, Chrost himself said eternal life was to, "know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." Now, this destroys the theory of the Trinitarian view. Knowing Heavenly Father, AND Jesus Christ, is in fact eternal life. Two Gods, one truth, with zero room for argument.

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Unknown:

I HAVE studied the issue, and the doctrine is certainly not blasphemous nor false. Your understanding is only what the LDS teaches you, meaning YOU haven't studied the issue yourself.

First, at Nicea the only "Catholic" church was the "Universal" church (Roman Catholicism hadn't existed yet), which is the meaning of the word; i.e., all Christians were the Catholic -- Universal -- church.

The multiple "gods" of Psalms are idols and false gods.

Nicea didn't invent the Trinity. In fact, over 100 years earlier both Origen and Tertullian wrote about the “Trinity” using that word, while Polycarp discussed a general notion of a “divine three.”

I wrote an article on my general apologetics blog in which I proved the Trinity by the Scripture:
http://watchmansbagpipes.blogspot.com/2010/09/trinity-proven-by-logic.html

One God in three persons is a fact. The LDS teaching of plural gods is the lie -- and there is indeed no room for argument about THAT. Leave the LDS teaching behind and actually study the Bible. Until you accept the true Jesus as your savior, you will die in your sins.

Rick Holt said...

Canonized scripture found within both the Old and New Testaments clearly refers to Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and as Jesus Christ our Savior. There are multiple references in the Bible to Jesus being a literal Son of the Father, as we are, the obvious difference being that he was the literal Son of God the Father (and Mary) in the flesh as well, which we clearly are not. Please do not allow yourselves to fall victim to misleading Catholic/Trinitarian notions of the Godhead(The doctrine of the “Trinity” was -created- many hundreds of years *after* the death of the Apostles by Catholic priests and teachers of religion devoid of any real priesthood authority from God, and many of their teachings are false(and not supported by Holy Writ).

They are applauding each of you from the depths of hell as we speak, brethren, while utterly relishing in the idea that they have been able to deceive so many countless millions of Catholics into buying their "Trinity Tripe"..while at the same time motivating countless millions of Protestants into re-branding it as another form of modern day "pseudo-pagan"-Christianity. The "Trinitarian" concept of worship is false and not supported by the Teachings and example of Jesus Christ Himself. Stop! Stop yourselves from going quickly down to the pit, brethren! I implore you to use truth and reason (as found within the holy scriptures)to more fully reconcile yourselves to God and to his eternal Word!..Hurry brethren..before its too late!

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Rick,

Could you please show me from the BIBLE where it says that God literally sired Jesus through sexual intercourse? What the Bible says is that God used Mary’s womb to start a conception. It doesn't give the details, but since God created everything to begin with, It is no small matter to create a method for Jesus to be born through a woman. Mormons ave a false foundation to begin with by claiming that God is an exalted man who had to earn his way to godhood, which means he was a sinner who needed to be saved, as was his father before him, and HIS father before him, ad infinitum. It is an impossible lineage to begin with.

Scripture says REAL Christians are children of God by adoption

Catholics did not invent the Trinity. You need to read my previous comment responding to the first commenter. Roman Catholicism didn’t even exist until the 5th century. As noted in the above comment that over 100 years prior to Nicea both Origen (c.183-254) and Tertullian (160-220) wrote about the “Trinity” using that word, while Polycarp (c.70-155 and disciple of the Apostle John) discussed a general notion of a “divine three.” How about some other “Church Fathers” from the 1st and 2nd Centuries who taught the idea of the Trinity without using that word: Ignatius (c.35-108), Justin Martyr (100-165), Irenaeus(130-202), Clement of Alexandria (150-215). Meanwhile you claim this teaching didn’t exist for “hundreds of years *after* the death of the Apostles…”

If you look at the article I linked to in my comment above, you will see the doctrine of the Trinity proven just from Scripture. (I’m not going to discuss the Romanist religion since it isn’t germane here, and I give it no support — as you would know if you actually read my articles condemning Romanism.)

Perhaps you should research a topic rather than regurgitating LDS propaganda. I suggest you heed the warnings I post on this blog about the false nature of the LDS church before it is too late and you spend eternity in hell separated from God.

Rick Holt said...

Glenn,

I will be happy to address your comment about the early "fathers" speaking of the Trinity, as well as the origins of this great Roman Catholic (i.e. pagan/pseudo-Christian)"Trinitarian" hoax.. if you will first respond to the following..

Please provide Vatican (Archival) documentation pertaining to *all* Melchizedek priesthood ordinations linking your Catholic "fathers" (Ignatius, Origen, Tertullian, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Clement of Alexandrida) directly back to Peter himself..

(Please be specific in providing the name(s) of the persons ordained; the date(s)on which they received their priesthood ordination(s) and to which office, the location(s)involved, and a copy of *any* official record certifying those who performed the ordinations were in good standing with the church (specific names of Elders and/or High Priests involved); please also provide names of any Melchizedek Priesthood holders(Elders and/or High Priests) who were also present and who actually assisted in or witnessed these ordinations firsthand)..

(Hint..Any and all 1st party *subjective* claim(s) to authority (i.e. Ignatius) made as a result of a self-professed association with any of the early Apostles, does not qualify as "historically documented" or "verifiable", nor likewise do any 2nd or 3rd party (hearsay) accounts or written records obtained through any subsequent "church" leaders qualify.

In short, Glenn, *You* (along with millions of other "anti-restorationites") have simply allowed yourselves to fall victim once again (as did your early "fathers") to the age old method of combining ad-hominem attacks w/ subjective interpretation of Scripture(along with a good dose of intellectual dishonesty)..and this because, at the end of the day, you simply cannot satisfy any real degree or burden of proof in relation to the *SINGLE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE*...


..ESTABLISHING AND MAINTAINING A *CREDIBLE* AND *CONSISTENT* PRIESTHOOD LINE OF AUTHORITY DIRECTLY BACK TO PETER!


The LDS Church, by stark contrast, possesses complete and total documentation for each and every priesthood ordination ever performed (names, dates, locations, names of persons performing ordinations with certificates of Priesthood lineage, witnesses names w/certificates of lineage, etc. etc...

It has been my experience that Catholics generally either bury their heads in the sand on this issue, or, less frequently, individuals such as yourself come along, who, as Peter aptly described.."Wrest the scriptures unto their own destruction", or who, as the Lord most aptly spoke through Isaiah, "Praise me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me."

I too can quote a great many scriptures "logically proving" (as you put it) that Jesus Christ, The Father, and the Holy Ghost are 3 separate, distinct individuals, and that the Trinity is nothing more than a fallacious hoax perpetuated by ancient teachers of religion devoid of any real priesthood authority.

However, before I do, I would like for you to first establish your ability (or inability)to provide official (detailed) Melchizedek Priesthood ordination records of Vatican origin).

Thank you and I look forward to your response!

-Rick Holt


-----------------------Consistency is a 'rare" jewel--------------------------

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Rick,

The Roman Catholic Church had nothing to do with the doctrine of the Trinity. IT was formulated during the FIRST century when the N.T. was written. It was comment on and explained in the 2nd Century.

You really need to get over the LDS bigotry and lies about Romanism. I agree that Romanism corrupted the true Christian faith. So you continually bringing in Rome is a red herring, having nothing to do with the origin of the doctrine of the Trinity,

Now, you again start with a false premise, the so-called LDS Melchizedek Priesthood. I'm not going to write a big commentary here, rather I will direct you to articles I have written on the topic to prove the LDS has no such priesthood. Please read them and educate yourself.

First, look at my examination of what the Melchizedek Priesthood actually is:
https://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-melchizedek-priesthood.html

Then there is this short follow-up:
https://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com/2014/10/the-melchizedek-priesthood.html

And another short follow-up
https://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com/2014/10/mormonisms-priesthood-fraud.html

Here's a thought-provoker for you:
https://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com/2014/11/did-they-really-say-that.html

You might also consider this one (I didn't write it, but I had permission to post it)
https://watchmanvlds.blogspot.com/2014/12/oops-there-goes-priesthood.html

Rick Holt said...

Glenn,

Here's your inevitable and inescapable dilemma...Anyone can read the Bible and formulate commentaries or narratives based upon preconceived bias and subjective study. For each and every verse of scripture you have utilized to support your fallacious argument(s) against LDS Authority, I can find just as many that support the LDS position, and more.

This is why Authority matters. According to the Bible, authority MATTERS, and will always be present in God's Church, despite your subjective interpretations to the contrary. Indeed, without authority, we have what we see in the world today, and what Joseph saw in his day..

..A veritable free for all (every man for himself) "jerry springer" circus show with a religious backdrop, with absolutely no definitive or authoritative leadership or revelation whatsoever. Almost 2 centuries later there are approx. 40,000 different "Christian" denominations in the US alone, the vast majority of which employ career minded salaried "preachers" who can't agree on the time of day with one another while teaching countless confusing, differing, and incomplete "doctrines" to their adherents.

Do you really believe this is what God had in mind when he called his Holy Priesthood and formed His only true Church 2000 years ago under the Apostles' direct leadership and guidance?

Per your own failure to supply any Priesthood records for Ignatius, Origen, Tertullian, Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Clement of Alexandrida..You have essentially sabotaged and undermined your own credibility and any subsequent argument(s) you could possibly make going forward.

In short, without priesthood authority, you may as well be one of the circus performers mentioned above..So if I need a juggling bear at some point in the future.. I'll certainly look you up!


--------------------------consistency is a rare jewel-------------------------

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Rick,

I see you didn’t bother to read the articles I linked to, or if you did you ignored all the Biblical evidence proving the LDS priesthood is a fraud.

YOUR inescapable dilemma is that the LDS teachings about the priesthood contradict both the Bible and other LDS teachings. You assert my study was based on “preconceived bias and subjective study” without proof, while it is certain that you are bias with your preconception that the LDS has told you the truth.

The LDS faith is based on lies from its inception. The proof has been provided time and again by thousands of real Christians who investigate the LDS, and thousands more (like me) who left the LDS when our research proved the LDS to be a fraud.

You have no priesthood authority. In the true Christian faith every believer is a priest, but the one and only priest who mediates between man and God is Jesus Christ, the only holder of the Melchizedek priesthood.

No, it is YOU who fail to supply “Priesthood records” for anyone. You refuse to look at the factual evidence provided.

Until you decide to engage on the topic of the priesthood on the posts I linked to, the discussion is ended and no more comments by you will be posted.

You will die in your sin.

Rick Holt said...

Glenn,

So let's get this straight. You began by referencing *multiple* key figures you labeled as "FATHERS" in your initial message, which reference you utilized in an apparent attempt to bolster the veracity of the "Trinity"...however, by your own admission, the very institution(s) THEIR doctrines and teachings *directly* influenced a few hundred years later.. (i.e. Roman Catholicism & Greek Orthodoxism) ... "Have no Authority!!"...


Can you say... I-N-T-E-L-L-E-C-T-U-A-L-L-Y D-I-S-H-O-N-E-S-T ??

I hate to burst your bubble, but this isn't my first rodeo dealing with individuals such as yourself who literally believe (and enjoy to some extent) suggesting that left is right, up is down, or 2 + 2 equals 5.

Glenn, If you wanted to believe, for example, the world is a flat disk spinning rapidly over a plasma induced vortex of multi-dimensional energy and/or that the moon is made of cheese ...I would just say.. "Hey..knock yourself out"!!....and yet we all know (those of us who exist in -REALITY- that the world isn't flat and that the moon isn't made of cheese.

In a like manner, all of the "anti-restorationite" foaming at the mouth and finger pointing in the world at the LDS and Catholics won't alter the INESCAPABLE REALITY that you have NO AUTHORITY to teach any of the things you are asserting, as evidenced by your own failure to provide *any* degree of Priesthood lineage for either yourself or your "fathers".

You are clearly entitled to your own opinion(s), but that is as far as it goes, as again, your arguments are without VERACITY, CREDULITY, but most importantly..AUTHORITY.

There is no such thing as "proving" LDS theology, or any other theology "wrong". There are only degrees of "certainty" and "uncertainty".

If I were you, for your own sake, I would start spending a lot more time and effort addressing the fair degree of *uncertainty* I have cast upon your own misguided claims at this point.

In reference to your posting links to misinterpreted verses of scripture associated with multiple (subjective)commentaries..All I can offer you at this point is from the old movie "Annie Get Your Gun"...

"anything you can do, I can do better".

-Rick Holt





--------------------*consistency* is a rare jewel--------------------------------

Glenn E. Chatfield said...

Rick,

Let ME get this straight. I give you the Bible as the evidence to the teaching of the Trinity and you obviously didn’t bother to look at my post (which uses ONLY Bible passages). I also cite early church “fathers” from the 1st century (only a few decades from the death of Jesus, and one who was an actual disciple of the Apostle John), and other from the early 2nd century who are merely writing about what has already been understood, and yet you keep harping about what Roman Catholicism did at least 300 years later! Let’s see, since I never raised the RCC as any evidence, your raising them is a straw man logic fallacy. And since you keep harping on the RCC instead of actually addressing the issue of the Trinity, you are using it as a distraction — a red herring.

Can you say “INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST?!?!”

I hate to burst YOUR bubble, buy you aren’t the first Mormon to claim intellectual superiority all the while continuing to believe that you can become a god over your own planet. Talk about left being right, up being down and 2+5=5!!

You keep making assertions, rambling attacks on my person, but no substance to back up your claims.

I challenged you to go to the post about the Melchizedek priesthood and find fault with it in comments there, but you refused to do so.

You start from a false premise that only the LDS has “Priesthood authority” to make any declarations of doctrine or teachings, but refuse to even examine whether such priesthood even exists (which it doesn’t).

Since you refuse to address the issues, you are now blocked from my blog. Go troll somewhere else, and may you eventually find the truth that the LDS is a lie and the christ you believe in can not save you.